Sequence of Return Risk

[00:00:03] Speaker A: So the myth is that I sit here, you know, at my desk, and, you know, I have a magic green button that I push. Green button or red button that controls whether the market goes up or not. So, like, I'm some kind of a cosmic dj, if you will. And that's just not true. But, yeah, that's the thing. They don't tell us in advance what the markets are gonna do. We don't. We don't get that. And the markets don't ask our permission either. So my job, believe it or not, isn't to predict the market. My job is trying to seek to. That you're okay no matter what the market does. That's the whole point. [00:00:45] Speaker B: Welcome to Lancepedia, a brand new show here on the Wealth Partners Network. I am Garrett Lill. I'm very excited to introduce Lance Browning. Lance, you'll be the, the host of Lancepedia moving forward, hence the name. I'm really excited to have you on here. You're my very first Texan on the Wealth Partners Network. And, you know, I'm sort of, I guess you'd say a Texas wannabe Texan. I'm from North Carolina. And we all sort of, I guess, wish we were Texans here, you know, but excited to be working with you, man. [00:01:10] Speaker A: We can't all be perfect, man. So actually, Garrett, eighth generation Texan. Eighth generation Texan. Yeah, man. So, yeah. [00:01:18] Speaker B: That's awesome. So in the, the name of your firm is Income Solutions Wealth Management. You're in Tyler, Texas, is that right? [00:01:24] Speaker A: That is correct, yes, sir. [00:01:26] Speaker B: All right, so from the, from the name of your firm, I'm just going to venture a shot in the dark guess here, I guess that you focus on retirement income planning, your practice. [00:01:34] Speaker A: Yeah. So retirement income planning, I think it's one of those catchphrases external around in our, you know, in our industry a lot. And every advisor kind of has some type of specialty. We're going to think so that's one of the deals, you know, that we try to do. A lot of times what we're doing in our, you know, what a lot of advisors are doing in our industry is just repackaging the same industry jargon somebody else is using. Right. And so trying to make it their own. But retirement income planning is, I think, a specific lane. You know, in the industry there some advisors may focus on portfolio management, or some may focus on comprehensive financial planning. Retirement income planning, I think, is a very specific niche. Okay. And yeah, so tell the audience. You know, we just kind of talk about what that means. If you will. So, you know, I would say one of my professional designations is an ricp, so that is Retirement Income Certified Professional. I'm also an aif. I'm a fiduciary in advisory relationships as well. But ricp, you know, you can also call it really incredibly Cool person if you want to, but have a professional designation certification in Retirement Income Planning. And I think one of the challenges, and there's a piece we put together, Garrett, maybe the mountain, if you can show that, that we talked about Mount Everest, and we'll kind of tie that into to investing. Okay. But they did some studies. You've seen these studies, you've probably seen these, haven't been in the business. So this studies of the number of people that have successfully climbed Mount Everest and they got to the top, they got back down to the bottom, all right, no problem. And what they found out, though, is that that of the people that actually died trying to climb Mount Everest, most of them actually made it to the top. They planted the flag, they took the selfie, and they died on the way back down and kind of tying that into investing and retiring. It's a different skill set getting up that mountain than it is getting back down. When you're getting up the mountain, you have what we. In our industry, we actually have a lot of phrases. Our industry, we just can't repeat most of them on a podcast, right? But when you're climbing, you're trying to grow your portfolio, grow your nest egg, getting to the top of mountain, if you will. But you plant flag, take selfie. But it's a very different skill set coming back down the mountain. For the investor, it's a very different skill set for an advisor to get you back down the mountain. That's different. [00:04:15] Speaker B: So what are some of the pitfalls? I mean, you want to talk about Everest. I've seen the documentaries say that same kind of thing. And that the majority of the people who don't make it, it's actually the descent or on the way back down that gets them. And there are reasons for that. [00:04:26] Speaker A: Right. [00:04:26] Speaker B: This isn't a show about scaling Mount Everest, so we don't have to flesh all that out. But on the retirement side, what are some of the pitfalls and the risks that cause that problem? Because I agree, and it's something that I've seen a lot. And unfortunately, too, here's the thing. I always used to tell people that when we talk about retirement planning, if you're going to make a mistake in retirement planning, your projections, whatever, it's A lot easier to, and better really to make those mistakes when you're, you know, 58 or 62 than when you're 88 or 92. Right. So the later in the game, the less time you have to do anything about it. So what are the. Some of the things that can go wrong? [00:05:04] Speaker A: So, yeah, and so big, big thing there, Garrett. And so we're going to talk a lot about that in Lancelopedia. So thanks, thanks for bringing that up, but because a lot of about doing that retirement income planning. So you've heard of Investopedia, heard of Wikipedia. So we're going to call this Lancelopedia and we want to take these jargon heavy concepts that you hear in Google, all that other stuff, and make them understandable and relatable so we can actually have a meaningful conversation, you know, on this topic. All right. Yeah. I mean, there's risks involved in everything we do, of course. And you know, the average investor is going to Google everything, right? They just are. They'll Google this, they'll Google that, they'll research any investment recommendations we make for them. And you know, they're going to Google us, check out reviews, yada, yada, yada. That's all fine, that's all well and good and no issues that whatsoever. But if I could have one wish, it would be that people would Google and try to truly understand something called sequence of returns risk. Sequence of returns risk, Garrett, in my opinion, that's probably the greatest single risk any investor's gonna face going into that retirement journey. I really do believe that. And a lot of people don't even know it exists. Probably first time, a lot of, a lot of our viewers have heard about that, but they don't know what that means. And we're gonna get into that fairly deeply here in the podcast. I will tell you this. Your success or failure, it's not going to be determined by the market. It's not going to be determined by some politician. It won't matter who's president of the United States or who's, you know, Smith County, Texas, dog catcher. Okay. It's not going to be determined by fees, like the gospel according to Google will tell you. It's probably not going to be determined by the advisor either, really. It's going to be your ability as an investor to control your emotions. Big one, number one. Number two, mitigate this sequence of returns risk. That's what we're trying to do. So that's a big part of what we're trying to accomplish and get people to understand. [00:07:10] Speaker B: Now, sequence of returns risk. That's. It's one of those big phrases with a lot of syllables, and I love the message and the intent of this podcast. To take the complex topics and try to make them simple on Lancapedia. That's. That's kind of the theme of my life for the last several years, honestly. Try to make the complex simple. So. So what does that term really mean? [00:07:29] Speaker A: Yeah, so If I take 100 different annual market returns, say, you know, plus 25, plus 6, plus 13 and so on, if I line them up and calculate the average, it won't matter what order I put them in. Okay. In a vacuum, the result's the same. Right. And we don't get. We get to invest in real life, not in a vacuum. All right? We don't retire in spreadsheets, and I think people try to do that. We retire. Real life. This is. This is live fire. Right? Real life comes complications. [00:08:00] Speaker B: So which part is introducing the sequence of return risk itself? It's not the market volatility, just to clarify. It's the act of withdrawing money in retirement. That's the key. That's the piece that injects the risk into the equation. Right? [00:08:12] Speaker A: Absolutely correct. Correct. [00:08:14] Speaker B: And you emailed over a chart before the show. Let's go ahead and bring that up for our YouTube viewers and walk us through what we're looking at here. [00:08:20] Speaker A: So I've got a Mrs. Jones, I've got a Mr. Smith and a Mr. Brown. So Ms. Jones is going to be in the far left. She's in the darker blue there. And. And by the way, we've got Mr. Smith, lighter blue, Mr. Brown, very light blue on the far right. And these are. These are hypothetical investors, Garrett. Okay. These are not real people, but I think I may go to church with a couple of these folks. But anyway, just for the record, we're not disclosing any private or confidential client information here. Right. So you're going to see three. So you're going to see these three columns. The darker blue, medium blue, the very light blue. These represent these three hypothetical retirees. Ms. Jones, Mr. Smith, Mr. Brown, you'll notice each investor has a historical average wink, wink return of 6% and kind of timeout. Disclaimer. I absolutely loathe the term average returns. Hate it. Drives me up a tree. Okay, there's no such thing in practical terms. And you're going to see why here, really, in just a second. Each of these clients starts with $1 million. You figure eight. $1 million. We're on free. And they retire at age 65. Medicare, and they each live for 25 years in retirement. So they're retired from ages 65 to age 90. Okay, so let's take a look at, at Mrs. Jones here and kind of see what she's got going on here. And you're going to see how that kind of works. So you'll see at age 66, in the middle column in her dark blue section, you'll see her first year in retirement, she had a return of 5%. Following year, second year, she shot the lights out, she made 28%. You see there, by year three, she had a return of 22%. So you'll see those returns go up and down in her column. That middle column of her section here, I'm going to pull that back up, and you're going to see annual return down there. So you're going to see how this kind of flows through. They go up and down, just different returns throughout the years. Very normal. By the time she reached age 90, down there towards the bottom, taking a sequence without taking me a single withdrawal, which, let's be honest, isn't realistic, Ms. Jones, 1 million had grown to $5,974,198. So she was almost at 5.8 million. I'm sorry, almost to 6. I apologize. Yeah. And so this was all under the umbrella, under the auspice of an average wink, wink return of 6%. Okay. And you want to pay really close attention to those early annual returns. All right, so from ages 66 to 68, she had a plus 5, plus 28, plus 22. She started off really well. All right, now go down to the tail end of this thing. So ages 93, 94, 95, you're going to see some really tough years on the back end. So she started strong, but she finished very weak. All right? And she still ended up with 5.97 million. Almost $6 million on average. 6%. Simple enough. Let's shift to the next column. Mr. Smith, kind of the medium blue there in the middle. So same exact fact pattern, Exact same. He retires at 65 with 1 million bucks. But look at his annual returns. Let's talk about that. He starts out with a brutal negative 14% year one, okay. At 67, year two, he loses another 10%. Next year he's down 2%. So three bad years, right, in a row. So then things start to improve pretty gradually. By the final three years here, ages 93 to 95, he's on fire. Plus 22, plus 28 plus 5. So what we've done is we've just inverted the order of her returns. Ms. Jones to Mr. Smith. Exact same numbers. We just reverse the order, if that makes sense. Okay. And Mr. Brown is where I get really, really passionate, Garrett. Because this is where people kind of start to buy into an illusion. I feel like he retires 65 with a million bucks and sees a flat 6 return. 6% return average every single year. Right all the way down the page. All right, that same 25 year stretch gets him the exact same final number is. Ms. Jones. 5 million 9, 74. Almost $6 million. But markets don't. Life doesn't work. Markets don't work that way. They do not move. Rarely do they move in linear fashion. It's not plus six plus six. Plus six. Plus six is not at works. And this kind of return stream is going to be wildly unrealistic. All right, so in real life, this would. This is only possible something like a 25 year CD paying 6% annually. All right, good luck. Good luck locking that in and finding one of those. But interest rates change. CDs rollover. Da, da, da, da. Just, it's not happening. So the point of, of all this is the sequence of returns. Doesn't matter. Here you can mix up the order of gains losses without any withdrawals. That's key. Everyone lands in the exact same spot, same total dollar amount, almost $6 million. All three standing at the top of Mount Everest planning the flag, taking a selfie right now to bring home kind of the, the absurdity of average returns. Let's pull up my next slide here with me and Shaquille o'. Neal. All right, so hall of Fame basketball legend Shaquille O' Neal from Texas, by the way, is 7 foot 2 inches tall. He's 7 2. Okay. I'm 5 foot 9. At least that's what I told my wife before our first date. Follow me for more relationship advice. Right, if you average that out, Shaquille and I, Shaq and I are six foot five. Eric, six foot five. Now that's technically an accurate. That's a true statement. But in reality, neither of us is anywhere near 6 foot 5. Okay, that's the punchline. That's the folly of relying on these so called quote unquote, average returns. I think a lot of people get led astray. All right, now, we planned the flag, we took this selfie. So let's get back down the mountain. Remember, that's the trick. Pull up the same chart for me, Garrett. If you don't mind, there's our three contestants. Ms. Jones, Mr. Smith, Ms. Brown. But this time we show withdrawals. That's key. All right, so let's say they're all pulling 5% withdrawal. 5% withdrawal annually from their portfolios. We've got that average wink, wink return of 6%. And they're taking 5% out. So everything should be fine, right? I mean, sounds easy enough, right? Yeah. [00:15:02] Speaker B: I mean, you're averaging 6%, you're withdrawing only 5%. By my east Carolina math, that account should be going up about 1% a year. [00:15:11] Speaker A: Yeah, theoretically, yes. All right, but let's talk about whether or not that kind of holds up. Okay, so Ms. Jones, here she is again. Starts with $1 million. Age 65, she withdraws 5%. By my Texas Public School math, that's 50 grand a year, give or take. Okay. All right. And so over 30 years, she's going to pull out $50,000 annually. Same order of returns as before. She starts really good, really strong. She finishes really weak. After 30 years, she still ends. She still has 3.1 million. A little over $3.1 million, right? Mission accomplished, no problem. She got back down the mountain. She's good. So let's look at poor Mr. Smith. Next column into the right here. So you don't know it yet, but Mr. Smith is that lucky guy that retired, say, January 1st of 2000, coming out of the roaring 90s, right before tech bubble. 9, 11 and all that. So he still got the same million dollars. Life is good. What could go wrong? Well, year one, he's down 14%. Year two, down 10. Year three, down two. With those losses, plus his annual withdrawals, remember, he's taking money out, he's left with about $540,000. A little over $540,000 after year three. Three, we're talking a 25, 30 year retirement here. Okay. And while the market does historically recover, yes, you know, it did come back, but he never really bounces back. He never really got, you know, back whole. So by, by age 91, he's completely out of money. His last eight years, he's basically just living under a bridge. Due to sequence of returns risk, that front end impact, those losses on the front end really, really crush him. So what we're seeing here, Garrett's kind of the old model of income planning, which is something we call systematic withdrawals. All right? To put the Lancapedia definition on there, that means each year to get your $50,000 in income, you've got to sell $50,000 worth of portfolio assets worth of your stuff that's invested when markets are up, like Ms. Jones. Early on, we see this works great. It works beautifully. Okay? Even with a rough finish, her last three years were lousy. She's still fine. All right? But when the markets are down, like in Mr. Smith's first three years, he's forced to sell more shares, more stuff at lower prices. Remember, the market's going down just to generate that same $50,000 income. Right? That's the kicker. That's the deal. Right. That takes him down badly. And that's not why I get out of bed every morning. I don't want anybody living under a bridge at age 91. That's not what I want for my customers. So if you'll remove variability, which is, again, not realistic. Mr. Brown, far right column, all right, here we remove that market variability, remove that volatility. So, like Mr. Brown, he's in a vacuum. A nice, tidy world of 6% flat returns consistently. He starts with a million dollars, pulls 5%. Yeah. He makes it to the finish line, he's okay. But here's kind of what's telling. He ends with 1.9 million at the end of the end of the scenario there. That's nearly a million dollars less than Ms. Jones, even though he was a level, steady, consistent 6% with 5% withdrawals. Why? Because she had returns, strong returns, big returns early on, the exact point in time where that matters most. [00:18:56] Speaker B: So if I'm understanding this, the big takeaway is don't retire right before a bear market. Right. [00:19:04] Speaker A: Simple enough. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. [00:19:07] Speaker B: So stay out of the markets. When? When? Right before they're going to go. Just. Just don't retire right before the market's going to tank. I got that. We can wrap the show now, right? [00:19:17] Speaker A: Yeah. Here's the thing, though. And this, Garrett, this is crucial. All right? So the myth is that I sit here, you know, at my desk on. On Troop highway, and Tyler here at troopcon, what I call troopcom Central Commando Troop Highway. And. And, you know, I. I have a magic green button that I push. Green button or red button that controls whether the market go. Like, I'm some kind of a cosmic dj, if you will, and that's just not true. All right? Yeah. [00:19:43] Speaker B: And just for the record, for compliance folks, lawyers, we are totally joking, okay? [00:19:47] Speaker A: Totally kidding. But, yeah, that's the thing. They don't tell us in advance what the markets are going to do. We don't. We don't get that. They don't ask, and the markets don't ask our permission either. So my job, believe it or not, isn't to predict the market. My job is trying to seek to ensure that you're okay no matter what the market does. That's the whole point. That's the value we bring. And that's why we approach this a little bit different. Now, Garrett, if you would, for me, pull up the Monte Carlo analysis for me. Okay, so let's kind of put this in reality here. So let's take what we just saw with Mrs. Jones and Mr. Brown and assign some actual probabilities to it. Okay? So what we're looking at here is something called a Monte Carlo analysis. And folks, just set the record straight. And you too, Garrett. This is not the cool Chevy car from the 70s, all right? We're showing our age here. Totally different Monte Carlo. Right? Okay. Monte Carlo, what this is probability analysis. So uses algorithms and millions and millions of data points historically driven to simulate a range of possible outcomes. That's what we're trying to do. Very widely accepted, unquestioned in the financial services industry. And what we do, these probability numbers are considered pretty accurate by anybody in our profession that does our job. So just to kind of be clear, running this under the assumption of those systematic withdrawals, again, where, in my professional opinion, is a seriously flawed approach to retirement income planning. All right. Yeah. [00:21:27] Speaker B: And this kind of reminds me of a guy I used to play golf with when I was a kid. Maybe like 10, 11, 12 years old. He used to have this saying that you have a 50, 50 chance of making every putt that you hit. You're either going to make it or you're going to miss. It didn't matter if it was a two foot putt or a one. [00:21:40] Speaker A: Not for me. Not for me. [00:21:43] Speaker B: It didn't matter. He said every putt's 50. 50, right. Well, I've played a lot of golf in my life and I can confirm for you, I make a whole lot more two footers than I do 100 footers. Right. Monte Carlo kind of takes that, that kind of thinking and adds real world math to it. It weighs each possible outcome according to its actual likelihood, not just a coin flip. [00:22:03] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. Right. Thank you. So take a look at that colorful chart there on the left. Kind of what looks like what I would call a Rubik's cube. Right? So same thing, 25 year retirement horizon and retired 65, 11 to 90. Now, let's align this to the folks we've been discussing, right? So let's say you're 65, you retire $1 million and you begin taking withdrawals for 25 years again to age 90, what's your probability of success? What's your probability of being. Okay, look below where it says stock bond, misc. Mix. Excuse me, on that chart. So that left column is showing a 100%. That means you're a very aggressive investor. All stocks, no bonds. Far right, you're gonna see a 2080 allocation. So 20% stocks, 80% bonds, all right? Most folks fall somewhere in that middle range between maybe 80, 20, 40, 60 stocks to bonds, okay? Now across the top of the chart, you're going to see withdrawal rates of 3%, 4%, 5% and so on. And I want to focus on that 5% withdrawal rate. And that kind of matches what we were discussing earlier with the three hypothetical folks. All right, let's say you're sitting at an 8020 allocation, 80% stocks, 20% bonds, and you're taking 5% withdrawals over a 25 year period, all right? 25 year retirement. You're going to see there you've got about a 79% probability. Success. Okay? And by to kind of define success when you retire, you live your full retirement. You still have money left at the end. You're not living under a bridge. All right, so that's the bar we're trying to get over, right? You got at least one penny in the bank. When you take your last breath, you swipe your debit card, take your last breath, it clears. No fraud alert. That's the goal. That's what we're trying to get to. So a 79% chance I would. Those are pretty decent odds, right? You're not going to sink 79% of your putts, probably first time. That's solid. We'll take it. But let's say you're a quarterback and you're competing, completing, you know, 77, 78, 79% of your passes, okay? You're going to want a whole lot of games, all right? You're going to make a ton of money, super bowl rings, and you're probably going to end up in the hall of Fame, most likely. All right, but let's make this story a little bit more real, okay? So let's pull that data apart and kind of make the numbers tell the full story. So the reality is, again, we're not in a vacuum, as you said earlier. So let's say you and I, Garrett, we're going to fly to Hawaii, all right? So. And bring your sticks because they got a lot of golf courses out there, all Right. So we're flying first class because you're paying. Right. [00:24:34] Speaker B: Nice. [00:24:35] Speaker A: So we back. Yeah, you're after that. And we back out of the gate, and Captain gets on loudspeaker. He says, you know, thank you for flying XYZ Airlines. We really appreciate your business. Da, da, da. Oh, by the way, we've got a 79% chance of landing in Honolulu safely. In Honolulu safely in nine hours. All right, big question. Do you stay on the plane? [00:24:57] Speaker B: I absolutely do not. [00:24:59] Speaker A: That's a hard no for me. And I might be a little fat guy, but don't be between me and the exit row, okay? I'm getting off the plane. I'm gone. Point is, we've got to mitigate these risks. That's the challenge. We need to improve those odds. What we're trying to do is build a better outcome, and we want to increase your probability of success by doing things a little differently, Specifically by generating income without relying totally on systematic withdrawals. Because that's what kills you. What really kills you is selling when the market's down just to generate income. And so, kind of like we talked about earlier with Mr. Smith, in a protracted down market, three years in a row down, he got quite rush. And the market did eventually, in this case, recover in this illustration, but he didn't have enough shares left to ride up that rebound. He never got back to even. And before he could recover, the market dipped again. The market acted stupid again. Cycle repeated. And that's what we call sequence of returns risk. And that's what it looks like in reality. Okay? So my job, my mission in life is to try to mitigate that risk. [00:26:11] Speaker B: So I once heard someone say that a good financial advisor's job is to take steps to increase their client's probability of success. I feel like that nails it pretty good. And it also keeps things compliant, right? Because no one can predict the future. No one knows exactly what's gonna happen. But if we can, all we can really do is to try to help people take these steps to improve their odds. [00:26:34] Speaker A: Nobody, as you said, Garrett, knows the future. And I tell people all the time, there are two types of experts, okay? Those that don't know and those that don't know. They don't know. And trust me, one of those is much more dangerous than the other, right? And unfortunately, many of those people wind up getting elected to Congress. So that's. That's another conversation for another podcast. But at the start of the episode, we said that two things matter most. So controlling your emotions and managing Sequence of returns, risk. If we can build a retirement plan that does those two things, we're way ahead, way ahead. And so we use some sophisticated tools like E Money planning software, kind of helps us focus on that retirement income portion of your financial life. Your financial future goal is to give you the highest probability of success that we can. It means knowing you have a strategy not just to reach the summit, the peak of the mountain, but to come down safely. Yeah. [00:27:35] Speaker B: Back in the early days of my career, like the first couple of years when I was just kind of getting to know the industry, we'd run all sorts of hypotheticals. And usually you take two portfolios and compare them for the clients, and option A will hypothetically go to $3 million before I pass away, and option B may grow to 5 million. And some would say, well, clearly option B is the better option. But I think the reality and the truth of it is the difference between the 3 and 5 million dollars isn't nearly as important as the difference between. Between 1 million and 0 at the end. Right. So it's not the same scenario. We're not necessarily for the highest number. We're aiming for security and sustainability and success in the portfolios that we're building. And success shouldn't be measured solely by who ends up with the biggest number. It's really more about which approach gives you the better chance of keeping that number positive. We need to be looking not just in terms of total dollars and cents, but on a spectrum from 0 to 100 probability metric. Right. It's. It's not just a pile of money. [00:28:34] Speaker A: Very good point. Absolutely, yes. Very good point. Very good point. [00:28:38] Speaker B: Awesome stuff, Lance. Well, really appreciate you taking the time to share all this with, with the audience here. And just a quick reminder to our viewers and listeners, Lancepedia, along with all the podcasts on the Wealth Partners Network, is strictly for entertainment and educational purposes only. Neither Lance, nor I, nor any of our affiliated companies can give you personal advice because we simply don't know your individual financial situation. So. So please take what we discuss here as food for thought, as a personalized recommendation. That said, if you would like to speak with Lance or someone at his team, I'm sure they'd be more than happy to talk with you. You can call, call the office at 903-787-8916. Again, 903-787-8916. You can visit Lance's website, www.lancebrowning.com. you'll find Lance's email there as well. Or you can Reach out directly to Lance at lancecomesolutions and and don't worry. Wherever you're you're watching or listening to this conversation, whether it's on YouTube or your favorite podcast platform, you'll find all this contact information in the description below. And if you're watching on YouTube, it's probably on the screen right now, assuming I did my job right. And before we go, I'll also shamelessly ask or, you know, maybe beg, for lack of a better word, for, for your support. Love for you to like the video, subscribe to the channel, follow the podcast, rate it. Whatever your platform calls, it really helps us to spread the word and grow the platform. We'd love for more folks to join us as we unpack these important financial ideas with a little bit of fun along the way. Lance, thanks again for your time, man. [00:30:13] Speaker A: Appreciate it. Yeah, appreciate you, man. Thanks. God bless, man. So we will see you next time. [00:30:21] Speaker B: Lancepedia is for entertainment and educational purposes only. Views and opinions expressed in the show or that of Lance Browning and are not guaranteed to come to fruition. If you have questions about your investments or your financial plans, you should seek a financial professional or give Lance a call at 903-787-8916. We thank you again for watching or listening to the podcast and we'll see you next time.